The Mind of a Child

[00:00:00] Leslie Corbell: Hello, I'm Leslie Dudley Corbell. And I'm Diane Doucette Matthews, welcome to the Mind of a Child.

We're so glad you've joined us for today's conversation. This is probably the most requested topic we have

[00:00:21] Diane Matthews: had and the most talked about subject amongst parents who have just had little ones. Yeah. 'cause you spend a lot of time with parents who have had little ones recently. Well, just recently. Yes, I have.

And it just seems to come up

[00:00:33] Leslie Corbell: a lot, you know, and it's a topic that's common in the US and the UK and parts of Europe. But it's not a topic that is popular around the world. Right. It's not even a conversation that people have around the world, but it's a conversation that we are having. That's right. Our

[00:00:49] Diane Matthews: listeners and our families.

And I was surprised to find out that, 'cause I thought it was all over the world that everybody dealt with this, but here we are in the West discussing sleep. [00:01:00] Yeah. And yet we're so deprived of sleep.

[00:01:02] Leslie Corbell: Yes. So that is it. You just unveiled our topic. It's sleep. Everyone wants to talk about sleep. That's right.

You know? So let's talk about history, the history of sleep. So obviously children have been sleeping for millennia. Yes. So heavily through the night and napping. Mm-hmm. And they've been sleeping near their parents for millennia. And then even they were sleeping near another female adult, whether it was a wet nurse, a nanny, a mom, anyone look back through history and see how this has happened and.

In Pioneer Homes.

[00:01:35] Diane Matthews: Yeah. One room. Yeah, one room. Like the kitchen, because they had the fire. Yeah. And that's where it was warm. Or maybe two if they had a little bit more money, you know?

[00:01:44] Leslie Corbell: So people were sleeping and sleeping near one another, and it wasn't probably a topic they had, but in the industrial age, that's when there really began to be an emphasis on in the west of helping our children sleep in other rooms.

[00:02:00] Independence was a goal. We should be independent even when we're infants. There

[00:02:04] Diane Matthews: was, you know, more working. Yeah. Moms were going to work, and so they needed more rest, more sleep. They didn't wanna get up in the middle of the night, so they had to solve this problem. Bigger homes. Bigger homes, more rooms.

Mm-hmm.

[00:02:16] Leslie Corbell: So, yeah, a different perspective started coming in on how we gonna handle.

[00:02:21] Diane Matthews: This problem,

[00:02:23] Leslie Corbell: so, so now let's talk child development. Diane, what age on average do infants

[00:02:30] Diane Matthews: begin sleeping through the night? Well, three months or 12 to 13 pounds is when they say they can. So that pretty much tells us

[00:02:41] Leslie Corbell: that.

Mm-hmm. They're not gonna be sleeping through the night. No. Right on. So before

[00:02:45] Diane Matthews: then, you know, some do, but that's not the norm. I mean, and some parents will say six to eight hours could be considered through the night, but we're talking 10 to 12 hours now. Mm-hmm. When we say through the night. And that [00:03:00] one

[00:03:00] Leslie Corbell: thing that I'm thinking about too is.

Anyone listening to this, we're not gonna tell you what to do at all. We're gonna look at a bunch of different approaches, different methods, and just talk about 'em. We will have some considerations and things that we think are important towards the end of this, of this episode, but we're just gonna go through all the different approaches because one thing you know, you know your baby, you know your family, and you know your needs.

So there'll be lots of input coming at you from other sources, but listen to your baby, listen to yourself, listen to your husband, listen to your family's needs. I do wanna tell a quick story, which was when my, I think it was my son, when he was an infant, we had a relative visit the house. Well, so this was a stage that we were in that's helping your child sleep through the night.

My relative went and bought a book at the bookstore on how to help your child sleep through the night and brought that to us. I don't even remember the title. I threw it away almost immediately, as

[00:03:56] Diane Matthews: soon

[00:03:57] Leslie Corbell: as they left.

[00:03:58] Diane Matthews: Well, okay, 'cause I was gonna [00:04:00] ask you what was the title, but you don't remember. You don't remember.

You and I have talked about this. It's between you and your husband too. You need to agree and we'll talk about this later when we add our considerations, but also don't compare other families what they're doing and what their kids are doing. It's not a race, it's not a competition. So anyway, thank you for that story.

That's great. Absolutely. Have great advice, don't they? Yes. Yes.

[00:04:23] Leslie Corbell: And 'cause as you say, your baby will do it when it is their time to do it. Mm-hmm. The goal with these sleep approaches, A lot of people say sleep training, sleep teaching. I laugh every time. I see that though, because I think about we have to be taught to sleep.

Haven't we been sleeping at night for, again, millennia Uhhuh? So it's kind of funny the terms that we've come up with now. Yes. At this time that it's a sleep training thing. The goal of that though is to help your child

[00:04:50] Diane Matthews: sleep through the night so that they can fall back to sleep. Yes. Without adult supervision or help.

Yes. So that's the B part of it. So [00:05:00] that's the other part of it. So the first one. The first one we're gonna look at. Yeah, I'll let you take this one.

[00:05:04] Leslie Corbell: Oh, man. Yeah, because it's, I think probably the one that people think of the most is the Cry it Out method, which is. So hard for me. But anyway, that method involves putting your baby to bed and letting them cry until they fall asleep without any comfort or help from you.

So that just means that you ensure that their environment is safe, that they've had enough to eat, that they should, in all understanding, be able to be asleep. And you don't go back into the room to check on 'em until later. And that method, this, this one that we're starting out with is not recommended by infant mental health professionals, but we wanted to put it out there because it is something that people have talked about in the past.

Oh yeah. And

[00:05:50] Diane Matthews: it is out there and people use it. And when I was reading about the person who first wrote about it, he even said. Put a towel or a blanket [00:06:00] under the door so that you can't hear the baby crying. Oh, no. I thought that's sad. That is, that is so, but if, if that works for your family. Yeah. Yeah. We, we don't recommend that one.

Yeah. We don't recommend that one at all. But, and then the second one is the Ferber method, and it is. They're graduated extinction, or check and console your child's crying. So you go in there, you console the child, you know you can pick the child up, you can rock it, hold it, lay it back down, and then you know it's graduated.

So each time you're gonna hold off a little bit longer before you go in there. And then eventually, you know, hopefully the baby won't cry anymore. So

[00:06:44] Leslie Corbell: that was the Ferber method? Yes. Another method that we read about was called the chair method. This method involves you sitting in a chair next to your baby's crib until they fall asleep, and then gradually you move the chair [00:07:00] farther away each night until you're near the door and then out of the room.

So that's the chair method and. The thought is that by the time that you do this, a child is able to fall asleep on their own.

[00:07:13] Diane Matthews: Okay? So you have to get a really comfortable chair because you know you're gonna, you're gonna sleep a little bit. You know, if you do this method, make sure you find something comfortable to sit in and that it's easy to move.

[00:07:26] Leslie Corbell: So that was the chair method. There's also something called the bedtime fading method, and this one is designed to help your child, circadian rhythm, get in sync with the family and with the normal day. Mm-hmm. And so what they say is to wait until your child is ready to fall asleep. They're showing signs of drowsiness, they're looking like they're tired.

Then put 'em in bed and hope that they fall asleep. So then what you would do over the course of the next few nights or the next weeks or so is gradually move that time. So let's say if it was eight o'clock when they went to sleep, move it up 15 [00:08:00] minutes. So it might be 7 45. You put 'em down, do that for a few days, and then seven 30.

And so gradually you're moving the bedtime to what works for your family.

[00:08:09] Diane Matthews: And at the very beginning, if like you put a baby down at eight o'clock and that didn't work for her at all, or him, you pick the baby back up and keep the baby up for 30 minutes until they show signs of sleepiness again. So you just work with their inner clock, the baby's inner clock, their circadian rhythm.

Yes. So, and then the next one is pick up. Put down method involves you going through your baby's normal bedtime routine, which we'll talk about later. We have a good example, but you go in, you calm the child down, however, calms that child down, and then you put the baby down and then you leave. And then when it gets upset, you go back in and do the same thing and you just keep doing it.

It's pick up, put down.

[00:08:54] Leslie Corbell: So this is my method, and I wanna call it the Soothe method. It's kind of similar to that pickup put [00:09:00] down, except I would rock my child to sleep and then put them down. Mm-hmm. If they cried in the night, I would pick them up. Rock them again and put them down back in their bed. I really liked rocking and holding my children.

The reason I did that was because when we soothe our children, when we help them learn to soothe, we do that by soothing them ourselves. And so they learn that and talk about co-regulation. Mm-hmm. And that's just a whole part of it. So another little tip to work into that though is when you go in to soothe your child to be minimalistic.

So lots of times we can go in and. Pat 'em, rock 'em, just 'em up and down, sing to them. And we keep changing it because we're not really having success and so we quickly change. So I would encourage, in my method, the Soothe method, you would do one thing for five minutes. Mm-hmm. So I'm going to rock them for five minutes.

And try to get them to sleep and put 'em back down. Or if you were choosing to pat their back, you would do that for five minutes.

[00:09:59] Diane Matthews: [00:10:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:10:00] Leslie Corbell: But not keep changing methods. Keep it simple.

[00:10:03] Diane Matthews: Yeah.

[00:10:04] Leslie Corbell: We don't overstimulate

[00:10:05] Diane Matthews: them. Perfect. Mine was developed from a friend of mine named Pam Carlson and I named it. The Pam Carlson, number three, because I spent time with her and she was so interesting to me because she was younger than me, but she had four children and I only had one, and she had been on the mission field and she was so wise.

Had all this information and she loved the Lord, but she had told me about this idea of the number three. She just said, if you wanna encourage your children to change, that, number three really works. It just so happened at six months with all my children, all four of them, and I hit the wall. I was like, Ugh, I am fatigued.

I am sleep deprived. And so Hank and I talked about it and it was like, okay, it's time. To check [00:11:00] out that number three. And so what she would say was like, the first night's gonna be hard. Second night's a little bit easier, but then the third time is gonna be really hard. What we did was at six months, we put them in their crib, which I could see down the hall, the crib from the, from my side of the bed.

It wasn't very far when they. Started crying or letting me know that, okay, here I am. I would go in there, but I would not pick them up and rock them, but I would soothe them. I would sing to 'em, pat them on the back, give them their pacifier and talk. I would talk and say the plan I. I'm just a real believer in that kids know so much more than what we give them credit for.

And so I'd kind of reiterate the plan and go, no, mommy's not gonna pick you up. You can do this. I believe you could do this. You can sleep through the night and pat 'em on the back and give 'em their pacifier and when they were calm down, sing a few songs, pat 'em, just love on 'em, you know, encourage 'em. And then I'd walk out and [00:12:00] I'd do it as many times as I had to.

And sure enough, the third night was the hardest. But then by the fourth night, you know, and so that's my plan in honor of my sweet friend, Pam Carlson. Uh, Pam Carlson, number three.

[00:12:14] Leslie Corbell: That's encouraging to think about in terms of like three nights, kind of gives you an idea of how it's gonna go. Mm-hmm. That it's not gonna be smooth sailing, no.

From day one. Mm-hmm. But that you'll reach this peak. Then after that,

[00:12:27] Diane Matthews: yeah, it'll get a, get a little bit better. That that

[00:12:30] Leslie Corbell: is encouraging.

[00:12:31] Diane Matthews: And then there's

[00:12:31] Leslie Corbell: one more. We wanted to talk about co-sleeping 'cause some parents will choose to co-sleep and there's actually two parts of what can be thought of as co-sleeping.

I. One would be bed sharing, which is when you share a bed. And that's not recommended by medical experts in room sharing, which is you're sleeping in proximity, but not in the same bed, for example, with a bassinet in the room with, I know they make little things that you can hook onto your bed. Mm-hmm. So the child is.

In very close proximity to you [00:13:00] or the snoo. Mm-hmm. There's

[00:13:01] Diane Matthews: some people

[00:13:02] Leslie Corbell: that use a SNOO that they, they really like, so, so those are them. And so that gets into our consideration. So as you have these different methods that people talk about, these different sleep training, sleep teaching, different approaches.

Then there are gonna be some considerations as you're making your choice as to what you are going to do with your family. So we wanted to talk about safety first. Mm-hmm. That was the, the first thing we looked at. Experts really do recommend that infant sleep on a firm, not soft space without pillows.

That's one of the, the key pieces. And then they do recommend that infants sleep in the room with the parents for at least this first six months. Now the American Academy of Pediatrics took that all the way to 12 months, but lots of other sources that we looked at kind of kept it around six months that they thought that that was helpful.

And that was because of the correlation between sids? Mm-hmm. And um, that it was thought through research that parents. Somewhat regulate the child's respiratory [00:14:00] rate, heart rhythms, and so by sleeping in the same room, the child was deemed safer.

[00:14:05] Diane Matthews: That's great. The six months, I didn't have any of this information.

I didn't have all the studies and the statistics, and yet God put wise women and great counsel. Just put all that there for me and I just wanna say thank you because that's what we did. Be curious and listen to what you are hearing the Holy Spirit say and you say, and what your spouse says. Anyway, I just wanted to go.

Yay.

[00:14:29] Leslie Corbell: Six months did sound like it was the age that they all talked about. I also wanted to mention, and we'll have this in our show notes, that there are safe sleeping practices and those can be found. I wanna read the websites Safe to sleep.nichd.nih.gov. There's one website that has a lot of things about safe sleeping, so things that you can take into consideration when you're making these choices.

And then another website was the www.healthychildren.org. In that site, there's a pediatric cardiologist who [00:15:00] shares his heartbreaking story of his young infant son who died because of suffocation when they fell asleep at night in a chair. So that's just some things to think about when you're making these choices.

Another interesting thing for me this week was I was reading my Bible recap and I was a couple of days behind. The reading was from First Kings three. Mm-hmm. And it was Solomon. When he had prayed for wisdom, one of the first things that he had to do was decided Case between two women who came to him.

Situation was that two mothers were asleep. One of them in the night rolled over and suffocated her son, and so she switched out her baby with the other mother, so that, and laid her deceased baby at the mother's breast and took the other mother's to her bed. Yeah. I thought, oh my goodness, this really is a thing that can happen.

Rolling over and suffocating babies, and of course it goes on. And Solomon decided who was the real mother. He was wise and used his wisdom to discern which [00:16:00] mother to which mother the child belonged. Yeah. I had

[00:16:02] Diane Matthews: never heard the beginning of that story. Mm-hmm. I had always heard that, you know, Solomon and, and his wisdom said, okay, let's cut the baby in half.

And then of course the real mama was the one that said, no, give that baby. To her, and then he knew who the real mom was. Mm-hmm. But I didn't know how it happened, so yeah. That was so perfect with our, what we were talking about today. Yeah. So thanks. Another consideration is parents' needs.

[00:16:29] Leslie Corbell: Mm-hmm. One thing I think about, you knows, health, our fatigue.

Can enter into our decision making.

[00:16:35] Diane Matthews: Absolutely. Especially, it's the

[00:16:36] Leslie Corbell: middle of the night and we're sleepy ourselves. And sometimes that can shift our ability to make a decision and to support our child, such as something to take into consideration.

[00:16:47] Diane Matthews: Well, I'm kind of laughing. You said it. It may mess up our decisions during the night.

It could mess up my decisions during the day. So Yeah. But we have to take that into consideration. Yeah. And the next one would be [00:17:00] parent choices. Parents make choices that is best for their lifestyle. You know, if both parents are working, they need to decide how they're going to agree. Mm-hmm. And make that agreement together, you know?

'cause if one parent's not totally in on the method, so to speak, then like you said, if they're fatigued, they're gonna go, no, no, we're not gonna do this. And then all of a sudden you have confusion.

[00:17:25] Leslie Corbell: Yeah. So what does research say about all of these methods and all of these choices that

[00:17:31] Diane Matthews: parents can make?

Well, this can be very encouraging and very burden releasing because there's no real objective data that says one way or the other. So really what, what would you conclude from it? So what

[00:17:47] Leslie Corbell: I conclude from that, 'cause everything that they've done is based on a subjective report from the parent reporting extra sleep or no sleep.

Mm-hmm. They really found that. Only one in, in in 10 or one in four. One in four, yeah. Some of the studies even reported [00:18:00] any benefits gained from any of these sleep training methods. It may be just

[00:18:03] Diane Matthews: at the beginning.

[00:18:04] Leslie Corbell: Yes. Yeah. And that there would be often be a, a peak like that, a surge at the beginning, but then those results wouldn't stick.

Mm-hmm. So basically they said by the age of two. Most children sleep through the night. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:18] Diane Matthews: Regardless of what you do and the other big thing, it does not harm them emotionally or behaviorally. So you could go one way or the other. Yeah. Whatever really works for your family.

I think that's encouraging.

[00:18:35] Leslie Corbell: I thought so too. I mean, there's so many ways that we provide emotional support mm-hmm. And build resilience in our children. Mm-hmm. They couldn't pinpoint one thing that helped a child's attachment level. So there were many opportunities. Throughout the day that the parent could respond to the child.

Right? And so they just couldn't find anything decisively that said, no, this was the causative factor. This was it.

[00:18:59] Diane Matthews: Right. [00:19:00] So that's what's so big on our communication today, is that each child is so different.

[00:19:06] Leslie Corbell: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:06] Diane Matthews: And you know, sometimes there are gonna work for you and sometimes they aren't. Give it a chance.

And then you might have to move on.

[00:19:15] Leslie Corbell: So what are our recommendations? I do think there are some things that we can recommend that will be helpful to parents regardless of what approach you take. So every family's gonna make their own choices.

[00:19:27] Diane Matthews: Yes. But

[00:19:27] Leslie Corbell: a really beneficial piece is that the husband and wife be on the same page.

[00:19:31] Diane Matthews: Absolutely. That

[00:19:32] Leslie Corbell: you are one on this.

[00:19:34] Diane Matthews: Mm-hmm. Because

[00:19:34] Leslie Corbell: you're bringing different childhood approaches and beliefs about bedtime to the family. Yes. That you have. So talk about them. And decide what it is you want to do, and then once you make those decisions that you support one another. In the carrying out of the decision.

[00:19:50] Diane Matthews: Yeah.

[00:19:51] Leslie Corbell: Encourage the other one that it's the two of you working together towards a goal, not you working against each other. You're both working [00:20:00] towards

[00:20:00] Diane Matthews: the same thing. Just a reminder that the most important thing in a family is that husband and wife. Are to be on the same page. A healthy home environment cannot be built exclusively on a parent's love for the children.

I wrote this and then I thought about it later on, and I, it's just, I wrote it better than I could say it. The properly situated family has got at the center, then husband and wife, loving and respecting each other, who then loves and teaches their children. Family should not revolve around the children.

That's the proper formation of the family for it to function properly.

[00:20:43] Leslie Corbell: And I think it's so important because of that to problem solve together. Yes, to find time for one another, to make each other priority. And lastly, to make plans to manage your own needs for sleep. So for example. I was the one getting up at night.

My husband's [00:21:00] work schedule didn't really allow him to be the one who'd get up in the middle of the night to help the children sleep. So that was my role, right? And I didn't need very much sleep, so I was very good with that. And I found my rest through my workout. I. I love to work out and that would give me that energy that I needed to get through the day.

And so that's how I handled it. But you were different.

[00:21:20] Diane Matthews: I was definitely, and I'm still different like that. I require a lot of rest and a lot of sleep, not just rest. And I did work out, but if I didn't sleep my brain, you talk about stinking thinking, I would just go south real quick. And it was just hard for me to stay focused.

If I didn't get enough sleep. So, uh, yeah, Hank and I had to work real hard at making sure I would get sleep during the weekends or even in the evenings, or go to sleep early or whatever. 'cause sometimes he couldn't get up in the middle of the night. He helped in so many other ways. But yeah, you have to figure out and work [00:22:00] together because there, like we said before, there are gonna be times where your kids are not gonna sleep.

You know, you're at the mercy of their sleep schedule at times. That's just the reality of it. And so

[00:22:09] Leslie Corbell: that's the first recommendation we would have. Mm-hmm. Another recommendation would be to establish a consistent bedtime routine. Mm. Yes. And this is huge. I think if you're looking for a sleep training method or sleep teaching method, this is also a really big piece of it.

So have a consistent bedtime. Yes. But you work into your family. Have sweet bedtime traditions mm-hmm. That you do every night. Mm-hmm. You had a really

[00:22:34] Diane Matthews: sweet one. I thought we believed in like just a night closure, you know, even if, if we weren't really going to sleep right then it was, I, I wouldn't say we pretended, but it was nighttime, you know, the lights go out, the TV goes off, it's quiet.

Just a calmer setting, you know, and we even talked about it, okay? It's time now to go to sleep. Uh, this is when we sleep. You know, God makes our [00:23:00] bodies grow and you know, mama, mom and papa are going to sleep. Now they live in New Orleans, but they're going to sleep. Uncle Daniel's going to sleep now. That's what we tell our grandkids now.

But you know, you, you just talk 'em through that You use the words, you know, the puppy dogs and the kitty cats are going to sleep. Sleep. Just, you know, talk about it and have that routine. And we did the same thing for our kids when they were little.

[00:23:22] Leslie Corbell: Well, you saying that about bringing closure to the evening makes me think of one of our most favorite around the entire us, if not the world, is the book.

Goodnight Moon.

[00:23:31] Diane Matthews: Oh my goodness. That was one of our favorites too. Whenever the child

[00:23:34] Leslie Corbell: is saying goodnight to everything in the story and wishing everything goodnight. So it does bring a lot of closure. And just something as simple as that is so satisfying, I would think for a young child when it's bedtime.

Yeah.

[00:23:46] Diane Matthews: And you know, if one of the parents is still watching TV and it's blaring and the lights are on and somebody's cooking in the kitchen, it's kinda like, okay, wait a second. I'm missing out on stuff. Mm-hmm. Well do the kids a [00:24:00] favor and just shut everything down for a bit and then even say, yeah, mom and daddy are gonna get ready for bed.

'cause you know, we're tired too. We're gonna, we're gonna go. I mean, you know. Yeah. That was one of our favorite books too. That's sweet. So fun.

[00:24:12] Leslie Corbell: And I think it's helpful when you have these routines down. So let's say you have your, as you said, your PJs, your bath teeth brush. The story that you're gonna read, the book Times Prayer, that you make a book of that with pictures of the child going through those steps.

Mm-hmm. Including a picture of them sleeping. Take one of them asleep and then take a picture of them waking up in the morning and getting their hug or their good morning, whatever it is that you do special, and read them that story. Yes. Let them see that story and what that looks like, because that's a wonderful way to help them realize this is what we do and this is what I do.

And then I just wanna repeat because I think it's so important, structure. Routine and consistency. Oh, yes. And be present in that moment. Mm. I know. We're so tempted. I can remember thinking about, you know, [00:25:00] I was tired, I was ready to go to bed. Maybe I was looking forward to watching a program with my husband, or some time for us together.

Mm-hmm. And I would wanna rush through that sometimes, and our children can feel that. Oh, rush. Yes. So if we can be present and be as serene as possible in that moment with them mm-hmm. And really set that bedtime moment and treat it with the. Respect and, um, nurturing that we want to put in there.

[00:25:25] Diane Matthews: Yeah, that is so good.

And then, uh, a final thought that we wanted to just close with, stay curious, you know, do some investigating, observe, see what's going on. With the family, with the children, here are some things that might be taking place.

[00:25:44] Leslie Corbell: Yeah. So if your child isn't sleeping through the night, or maybe they were sleeping and now they're not, now they're not again.

Mm-hmm. As, as Diane was saying, be curious about it. It could be that it's just normal development. Mm-hmm. Sleeping through the night is not a milestone that they're ready for yet. Pull back a little [00:26:00] bit is the routine off. Has the bedtime changed? Has there been some recent changes in the family? Are you traveling?

Is anyone sick? Oh, ear infections, teething. Mm. And and I think too about family stress. Yes. Is there some underlying family stress that can be going on that can affect a child's ability to sleep as well?

[00:26:18] Diane Matthews: Yeah. Mom and dad arguing. Mm-hmm. Anything like that can affect a child. So yeah, those are just all things to think through.

And, you know, you, you mentioned the developmental. Processes of a child. Some of the things that we read, they'll say that children will all of a sudden get more curious themselves and not wanna sleep as much. So beware of that too. They're gonna go through some periods where they're just not wanting to sleep as much.

So

[00:26:44] Leslie Corbell: if there is something that you're concerned about. Always speak to your pediatrician about it. Absolutely. Or a health professional,

[00:26:51] Diane Matthews: oh, let me add this too. Be cautious about sneaking out of the bedroom, not communicating to them what you're doing. [00:27:00] They're smart, so just always be upfront with them. They know more than you think they do, and they can pick up on that.

[00:27:08] Leslie Corbell: And the last thing to think about is a perspective change. I just wanna encourage all of you that this is a short time. If your child's not sleeping through the night yet, and I know you're fatigued and we've all been there too, we talk a lot about our mind, the mind of a child, the mind of an adult. And so if we can acknowledge the fatigue that we're feeling in this moment and give it to the Lord, 'cause otherwise we can be overcome and ruled by our fatigue mm-hmm.

Rather than how we really want to be in that moment. That's right.

[00:27:43] Diane Matthews: That's good.

[00:27:43] Leslie Corbell: So it might even sound something like, dear Lord, I am tired and I really wanted to get more sleep tonight. Carry me through this night so I can care for my precious baby. Change my heart to incline towards you in this moment and give [00:28:00] me rest.

Mm. And so it might be something as simple as that, that we can help ourselves. Be present in this moment and see it a little

[00:28:08] Diane Matthews: differently. Mm. That's beautiful. Another wise mentor I had, um, Karen Nelson, she said, when your child cries, instead of saying, oh no, say, oh good. And boy, that can be a real perspective change right there.

[00:28:28] Leslie Corbell: And it helps us be back in the wonder and the blessing of that moment. Mm-hmm. That we know deep down. It really is. Yeah. It just helps us. Reclaim that.

However you approach sleep and nighttime with your child, be together as one on it. Encourage one another and respect one another. 'cause you will need both of you to do this. Establish a routine, have a consistent routine, consistent schedule. And share it with your child. If things change [00:29:00] with the bedtime routine, your child's no longer sleeping through, you're having a rough patch.

Be curious about what is going on. Understand that perhaps some other things have changed. Family schedule, address those things. Think about that perspective change. If we can make that shift and set our minds on things above, then we will be back in the wonder and the blessing of the moment.

[00:29:22] Diane Matthews: Thank you so much, Lord, for reminding us of the blessings of sleep and rest, and children.

We ask you to give us the rest that we need every day, and real rest comes from. Coming to you. And so teach us all, Lord, what that looks like for us right here and right now. And it's in your son's name we pray. Amen.

[00:29:51] Leslie Corbell: Thanks for listening. Check out our Instagram at the Mind of a Child Pod, or you can email us at the Mind of a Child [00:30:00] podcast@gmail.com.